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Emotional Intelligence:

It's always valuable for me to observe intolerance at work. I think peopel who do not live in that modality are always surprised to see it arise. And yes Jews have always borne the bfrunt of European Christian intolerance, so what's new?

I think that Heidi, Robyn, Bill, and many others here have an anger issue here . I think you have an anger issue over anger. But you are not alone. I've seen this a lot here. If it is not Jesse then it could just as well as be me (and has) and by the same people if you know what I mean. Now I am just calling a spade a spade, not complaining. I am telling my truth not to rile you up or upset you (although it probably will) but the point is to be honest and maybe some one will learn a lesson. I don't mean that punitively. Think about it - anger about getting angry or in another way getting angry because some one else expressed generalized anger. Do you get it?

Some one has an affliction (called anger). So a doctor traets the affliction with medicine. That medicine is called yoga. Those who would blame the victim are themselves victims IMO. Many peopel have come to MIS looking for community who have left. Ever wonder why? I've talked to a few afterward...

My first question is for you all to first recognize the cause of your anger. It was not provoked on purpose by some body outside your mind. You have to own up to the mechanism and then exorcise it if you can.

IN GENERAL, many people become angry over some one's generalized expression of anger. Why get defensive unless the anger turns into ill will directed at you? Yes , that is a question regarding your own lesson.

Now Jesse is new to this community and although he was welcomed at first, some people got pissed off at him it seems. Why? Because they felt that their neat white middle class values were being attacked. Yes Jesse does not share those values. SO what? Is this place only for neat white middle or upper class white folk

You don't own this board nor do you dictate its content. Jesse is being honest, but he was not attacking anybody directly. He takes a stand regarding life style choices and values that are different from yours. SO is that a threat. This is a yoga board primarily and Jesse practices yoga. We have some people here who do not even practice yoga who post often. So why the anger if it is not just culturally induced intolerance or hatred?

Some of you have then taken this new guest and acted hostile toward him, angrily labeling him as a "whiner". Yet these same people say it's more than OK to complain of being depressed, sick, confused, fearful, possessive, ego driven, or depressed all over the board, but not angry. So it doesn't take a genius to see why these same folk have double standards and are angry with Jesse. Some people feel attacked/threatened don't they? I assure you Jesse is no threat to you (except perhaps your belief system).

Hey Robyn, it's ok for your friends to whine and complain, but it turns your skin to hear Jesse whine doesn't it? Why is that?

So yes you guys are upset about anger. It's about the worse greeting of a new guest I have seen. Jesse has anger issues. Most men that I work with do also. So what? That's pretty common. Even some women have anger issues. Even people on MIS have anger issues. So how do we deal with it consciously except talk about it?

You know anger is not a new subject. Buddha and Patanjali talked about it thousands of years ago. So did Freud, Reich, Rolf, and Grof. . If you can't handle it, then you can go to the other sections.

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More precisely, I want to assure you that there is nothing to fear from Jesse except that he may not share your cultural values. You know he doesn't have to see the world my way or yours. He does however practice deep yoga. So I say buzz off

Heidi said: "I am not hearing the opposite from Jesse, Donny...?"

Heidi since this was sent to me, I feel a responsibility to respond. Well Jesse clearly said in his introduction right at the beginning:

"I am excited about joining this community..and I am also cautious. I come from a real hard life...have done time and am not always soft spoken. So I am crossing my fingers that I will find some degree of connection here...

Oh...btw...when I picked up Moving Into Stillness and the first sentence of the book was "Yoga is the development of fearlesness" I was like "Yea...that's what I'm talking about".

namaste to all, "

With better insight than I seen in a long time, Jesse said later:

""I often get the impression that folks deeply involved in spiritual work happily forget that they are f'd up cause they were f'd over. They were not born terrified, greedy, timid, angry, racist capitalists...they were absolutely forced into those roles by being totally heart broken, fundamentally victimized by the adults and the adult institutions around them...from school, the family, the church and on and on.

Yes the ego is a problem. Yes the ego creates the possibility of attachments but geez...I mean if someone comes up to me and f's me over...even if it is "just" emotionally then my egoic self is not the damn problem...the ass who hurt me is the problem..and the pain he or she created."

Now I find in that a lot of self awareness and wisdom. Much more so than I hear normally. Jesse's posts are imbued with insight IMO. That is the reason that I welcome him, yet his initial apprehension about how this may fly with middle class wasps is well taken. It doesn't mix with some of you, does it?

First. I take Bill's hostility toward Jesse was unprovoked. Bill admitted such. Why have hostility? If some one does NOT like what some one is saying then they can go somewhere else. Obviously Jesse was not attacking Bill directly, but I think that some mannerisms or tonality reminded Bill of his father, so it seems. Now my father was neither a drunk nor an angry man, so I didn't get it at first.

I think however to Bill's credit and good fortune that he had a chance to get in touch with his anger -- why he was angry. Hence he has something to work on - some old demon to exorcise has been identified.

The average person is not ready. they are not looking within but rather operate reflexively. They just pile up more whipped cream over the demons to hide and insulate themselves from them. Stubborn and tenacious they refuse to be awakened under any circumstances.

So what I perceive in Jesse is authentic (by authentic it is not text book mimicry) insight and the ability to work deeply triggering and making accessible one's stored feelings be they anger, grief, fear, whatever. He's facing his demons. Burying your demons via foam insulation or ego armor however only delays the inevitable. That is yoga IMO. If you don't like this type of yoga working with negative emotions (kleshas) in order to get to the natural expression of the positive emotions then go to another thread if you like. Of course if you want to whine about Jesse whining then stay here, I'll move

Yoga is deep stuff. It's not YJ Yoga IMO. This is what I hear Jesse saying and I agree recognizing that my values, views, and mannerism appear as a threat to some people here also. However I pose no real threat to anybody here. .

Because of being probably one of the oldest members still on this board I do recognize from past experience in doing many years of bodymind work that a lot of people here there might be some anger issues to heal. That is NOT a put down, just a fact. I will include myself in that category as well.

If for example your father or mother fought or you were terrorized as a kid because your father or mother got angry and perhaps violent, then you might well still be afraid of angry people as an adult until you confront this mechanism. This is a major reason why the expression of generalized anger still frightens a lot of people, even here on MIS.

I'll give an example. Some one misses the A train and has to wait an extra hour to catch the B train. They get pissed off (instead of dealing with the frustration. Then they come home and kick the dog, or yell at the kids and wife, or even become violent.

I'm not justifying it but that is a general example. In later life these kids who were terrorized by alcoholic parents or parents with anger issues may be generally afraid of people who are generally angry. They either wind up in fear or become defensive/angry at the person who is angry. EVEN IF THH ANGER IS NOT DIRECTED at that person, but just expressing anger is seen as a threat.

If you have worked with your own anger and IF you have worked with other people's anger successfully, you are no longer defensive or angry at angry people - you are no longer living in the past as a victim when some one is generally angry now or expresses even the beginning of dissatisfaction. Like if I am angry about increased state taxes here, that does not pose a threat to you unless my generalized anger winds up with me beating you up, which would be unrealistic. Like there are toms of examples, yet some people feel threatened when some one expresses dissatisfaction. I don't think it is a necessity to state that one is satisfied with high taxation when it can be reduced, when one really is not satisfied/frustrated - when expectations are not met. Just be honest. OK bad example. We already talked about unmet expectations elsewhere. So I leave it those who may be interested to find that thread.

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Now if some one is ANGRY at YOU personally and has ill will toward you, then yes, you better protect yourself. In the past everything was first person. If anger was exhibited, it was displayed in real time and things had to be WORKED OUT on the spot. Sometimes violence happened, sometimes reconciliation.

Listen folks I know a lot of you guys obviously have anger issues - and I don't mean that you are always reacting with anger toward anger, you could be reacting in shock, fear, or grief. I just say you no longer have to be a victim of that reflex if you chose to recognize the mechanism and deal with it consciously. That may appear painful and that's where the real courage comes in.

Now this may address some anomaly here which was asked previously. Why is it that there are so few black people here on MIS? Why are there so few poor people? Are they just bad seed and genetically damaged or is their a cultural dissonance taking place? . Is yoga just mainly for female wasps?

To sum up we have a lot of peeps (mostly middle class white women) on this board who feel it is OK to talk about grief , depression, and sometimes fear (fear is somewhat taboo as well), but not anger. In general men tend to react to frustrating circumstances with anger because men are more active (less passive). Then a healthy male directs his anger constructively. In fact Tibetan Yoga has many such practices, recognizing anger and the other emotions as a potent allies. Yes I practice these techniques.

On the other hand in general, women tend to take situations that are frustrating toward grief and tears. They have a good cry and its over. If they don't resolve it that way, they may get depressed or fixated on their grief. That's not healthy either.

Sure the answer is to accept the situation and then try to change it if it is changeable. Grok what is happening, get perspective and act in an informed way. Those who can access their higher self do so, SO when we deal with people and emotions in yoga it is all about consciousness and, self awareness. Jesse is aware of his demons. Lots of people who pretend to not have demons (demons are messy) just continue to deny/ignore it.

With yoga as I see it taught classically we integrate the skills of self awareness and insight through authentic practices which provide that. That is what I mean by authentic practices versus tight buns, look better, and sweat more yoga. We start to shift, not just hang out more and cajole each other feeding the error of pride. That is how the shift happens to be able to make our lives and those around us better -- to know the difference between the things that can be changed with wise and compassionate action and those which can not. Then energy manifests as power - consciousness is creative power. In that place there is no need for kleshas (afflicted emotions) or kleshas about some body else's kleshas.

Further reading:

Daniel Goleman: "Emotional Intelligence"

Robyn, you have vented your anger against me many times, admit it. Yes I do understand your hurt feelings and anger, but also there is a lot of hypocrisy (obviously you would resist working with some one else on that because you are so strong willed. I think the strength of your will can be an asset, but also it can be a liability,. I offer that because you have addressed me personally here and also in many other posts with open hostility.

All because you become angry reading my posts does not mean that I am angry. The anger comes from within you. Nor does it mean that I am trying to get you angry. or grievous on purpose.

Robyn said: emotionally:

" Donnie wrote: I found his sharing very powerful because in my work, that's an advanced place to be; i.e., to recognize the traumas and to be able to feel it, access it, and then release it. It often takes many visits until a place is released."

So, it is okay for Jesse to continue to vent and rant about the same things over and over but Bill isn't allowed to express, for the first time on this forum, things he is working through, without you questioning why? So … why isn't it an advanced place for Bill to be?

I would give anything if you (Donny) could read yourself through my eyes. You waffle back and forth too much for me.

So there it is Robyn. You didn't read my post to Bill with an open mind. I was trying to act as an inquirer (its called jnana yoga). Not that I am a good jnani.

Your conclusion that I asked Bill "where does that hostility come from" was that I was telling him to scram. No, it was a genuine attempt to get to step one, called recognition. Bill must first say I am angry. 2. Bill must say that he wants to work on his anger issues.

3) Bill must then be willing to explore the causes of his anger 4) then Bill can release it.

That's just the beginning of a successful jnana session. Basically I see that Bill doesn't respond well to my inquiries. I think you and he may be making the same assumption whatever you have on your minds... duh?

Robyn said: " You waffle back and forth too much for me."

Well that's your problem Robyn. Why don't you just ask without anger or hostility what it is that confuses you about my posts or appears as waffling. Maybe it is your own inability to see things through "my eyes" or maybe it is just your own confusion? Maybe it is my confusion and you can help straighten me out. That's what an open dialogue CAN BE if we don't read in our bias or prejudgments into it.

\We come here from all over the world, and we can actually take advantage of Ecommunity to dialogue farther than hold grudges or whatever it is that is bothering us inside. But how many people take advantage of that. Rather they take the time to be hostile, blame others, and display anger too often, while refusing to own up to it. As I said it IS to Bill's credit that he owned up to it. As anger doesn't feel good. I expect Bill would prefer to be free of it once and for all. Yoga Sutras say that this is very possible. So do I.

Indeed I am SURE that you don't understand me, but if you are not interested then I am not going to explain myself .

To your credit you express what is on your mind, but I do think that you make quick judgments too often especially when dealing with people who are not in your field of experience or cultural background. I suggest an open attitude of inquiry if you do not feel threatened by other people's views and morals.

In short if you want to sincerely dialogue with me, I am open. If you just want to vent, blame, demean or hate me, then I think I will avoid you.

The thing I am short of is time. Especially this Sunday. I may not be able to respond until tomorrow, but I am open to an honest non-judgmental cross cultural dialogue,

Donny

Bill

If this feels like some one is picking on you, I am sorry. That was never the intent. To be exact, you said:

" Well you stick that some where the sun don't shine."

I don't n\know about your English, but around here that seems like a very hostile comment.

Then you said distancing yourself some what, but to your credit owning it still:

" Look Jesse you are gonna come back and see that I got pissed and that's what it is. It aint you, it is the situation. I dont know you personally and its no attack on you, just how you are representin."

So what pissed you and how did it come up here on this thread?

Was this it?

" I suppose the trigger came in the form of how much Jesse has bee f ed over and why it was such import for everyone to know, I tend to think those are things best worked out in time and personal space."

It's important to KNOW because we may be able to help NOT by giving our condolences or sympathy r whipped cream, (but because Jesse isn't asking for pity) , we can share here from our experiences. From my experience (yes we all have been through some stuff, that Yoga is all about freeing ourselves from negative emotions (kleshas) such as anger and deprogramming that. If you do YOGA effectively then you don't need a therapist, a drink, drugs, or other external things. You don't have to believe it or do it, but I do invite you to entertain that possibility..Totally your choice as always.

Maybe it is not for you. I guess you are right about yourself. I was talking generally and from lots of hands on experiences, in trauma workshops, men's groups, and in teaching yoga where a lot of that kind of opening occurs.

what, are you talking about ? Yoga?
I've recieved a lot from it so far, clarify please