It's Dangerous to Believe Your Body is an Illusion

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Lillylulu		#21	[-]
Posts: 3133 (12/18/08 14:59:02) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	lately the wording keeps me from tapping into his teachings, but after your reply i remembered that Paul smoked or used to (? i think) and that led me to here: Raj/addictions/body where i was able to read. this is something that i have been thinking about (not specifically how he says it) with regards to healing and body. i'll post it here in case it speaks to someone else too. Cause does not lie in the three-dimensional frame of reference, it lies in what I have referred to as the fourth-dimension, which is another valid way of referring to the Kingdom of Heaven. The fourth-dimension, or the fourth-dimensional conscious experience of being is the experience of consciousness without any distortion present whatsoever, which means that you are having the conscious experience of everything through God's eyes, if I may put it that way. It is the Movement of God which is always fourth-dimensional that is rendered visible and tangible three-dimensionally. But the cause does not reside in the three-dimensional frame of reference, which means that cigarettes do not cause cancer, overeating does not cause over weight, one part of your world cannot kill another part of your world, etc. Now, I know that flies right in the face of your common sense. But the belief that cause does lie in the three-dimensional frame of reference is part of the mutual agreement to be ignorant, or to have a point of view based upon partial information that two or more of you agree to call truth. If indeed cigarettes or carcinogens or anything else caused cancer, then no matter how much realization you had, it couldn't be changed, there would never be healing. so, having just a 3 dimensional viewpoint, overeating does happen disease happens some things are dangerous, but once we align 4 dimensionally, where these causes/effects don't operate, then that gets manifested here on the 3rd dimensional plane? this may be helpful to the perfection struggles... the only trouble with all this and it is something i have witnessed firsthand, is that there is the practice of aligning 4th dimensionally, or with God-consciousness, with the mind only, it can be just an intellectual exercise, and if it isn't fully realized, embraced, understood, and then you think you are fully exempt from 3rd dimensional cause and effect, (like it doesn't matter what i eat or smoke, etc) and then something happens to you, it becomes a place of confusion and frustration... i hope that's somewhat clear... and also, what about other demensions beyond 3. 4? Last Edited By: Lillylulu 12/18/08 15:18:56. Edited 2 times.
LauraCarpini	The Cave	#22	[-]
Posts: 107 (12/19/08 05:13:26) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	What if the perception - what if we were living in a cave and we didn't know it? Within our lives there would be the "myth," the stories of the sunshine on the "outside." We would sort of trip along within the confines of our confinement without knowing we were confined at all. In fact we would ridicule those of us who suggested otherwise: "What - you think, you believe there is a place outside this cave where there is light and space and freedom? How stupid... those shadows on the wall aren't evidence of light from above. They are all that is real because they are all we can see. Stop harping on about some imaginary light and stick to the business here - figuring out ways to mole through the dirt without stumbling, and maybe if you're lucky you might find happiness and wealth and a lover... but that is it, you fool. THAT IS ALL THERE IS. We're going to have to lock you in the lowest, darkest dungeon of this reality until we convince you that this is the truth and the light you're babbling about is a dream." And most of us wouldn't think to search for an escape. But then there would be a whisper, just a whisper in the dark of Something Else. It would come to us lightly at first -the suggestion of Elsewhere - of this freedom - of this place where we are able to perceive beyond and inclusive of what we are aware - of now in this cave. The outside would not negate what is happening in the cave. On lots of levels we've been waiting for it; the wake up call - so when it got louder and more sure - why would we stay there moling around in the dark? We would long for the fresh air and sunshine - the freedom from all the tennants of that darkness: disease, limitation...eventually death...those would seem real, inevitable in that dark, limited place. Soooo - I mean beyond the cave - there could be limitless dimesions - not four - not even eleven - (I was watching a show "The Elegant Universe" the other night where scientists - string theorists have proven mathematically the existence of 11 dimensions - all of these dimensions beyond the first 4 -the other scientists were saying couldn't be real BECAUSE THOSE DIMENSIONS ARE INVISIBLE AND THEN WE WOULD BE COMPLETELY UNAWARE OF THEM. That's so funny. Incidentally the scientists were saying the 4th dimension is time.) I'm biased, but the poets know the truth - poets, musicians, mystics, and lovers of course - they know how we're immortal - and they focus on truth in terms of that which is invisible - that which is unbound and outside the confines of the five basic senses. So it's not like there's even really a choice - the only real decision is to come out of the cave - to stop playing with shadows and follow that voice that comes to all of us beyond our senses. Oh - I'm headed back to bed now - It's so funny I wasn't even thinking about this stuff; I just read Lil's cool comments before I went to sleep and then woke up all of a sudden and then realized... well I remembered the metaphor of the cave. Figured I'd better write it in here or I'd forget again.
lightdancer		#23	[-]
Posts: 10164 (12/19/08 06:48:01) Asst. Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Really interesting stuff, Lil. I really appreciate help with the perfection struggle. Maybe I'm not understanding it fully - well, I'm sure of that - but I don't hear Raj saying that cause and effect do not operate in the 4th dimensional viewpoint. Rather, what I'm hearing is that it's in the 4th dimensional viewpoint where nothing but the real effects of the one and only true Cause are experienced ..health, healing, joy, peace, etc. There is only one Cause in play and it has the effect of Love. In other words, the way I'm understanding it (which may be wrong) is that the 4th dimensional viewpoint, which is simply the state of mind of consciously experiencing non-stop unity, doesn't allow for any smidgen of distortion or any ego thinking. Therefore, the only thing to consciously experience is/are effects of the true cause. And I'm hearing him say the causes for the afflictions experienced in the 3rd dimensional viewpoint (being in the kingdom but not realizing it) are not things "out there," not things that we are a victim of, but are, rather, an effect of a distorted mind. A distorted mind will always be a victim because the causes of it's suffering will always be other than or outside of itself. In other words, there aren't multiple causes for suffering, sickness, etc...there is only one: a distorted mind. I totally agree with you that attempting to align with the 4th dimensional viewpoint can often be an intellectual exercise and another way to just feed the ego and remain isolated. That's sort of what Raj is talking about, I think, when he speaks of the danger of "the body is just an illusion." These deep truths can become nothing but spiritual platitudes, another way to disengage from your brother, so to speak. "Oh, the 4th dimension is mental, so none of this stuff here matters." Same as "everything is perfect, so I can just do what I want and it doesn't matter."
Dancing Lotus		#24	[-]
Posts: 4298 (12/19/08 08:19:00) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Lil, Thanks for your post. Laura, I can just see you jumping out of bed, posting and heading back~! Carie, Thanks for your post. I was getting the same thing as you on the interpretation of raj ~ being that the true causes reside in another dimension. (the Kingdom of Heaven) I think I may differ slightly from your interpretation in that it seems to me that the universe is so complicated that it likely requires more than just the one and only true cause ~ maybe some kind of a primary initial cause, but there must be subsequent causes for continued manifestation. Also taking it one step further, it seems that raj may be pointing to the possibility that when we begin to walk in the fullness of who we are and the gifts we've been given, we can become a cause in a higher dimension and affect change here in this 3rd dimension. (raj: If indeed cigarettes or carcinogens or anything else caused cancer, then no matter how much realization you had, it couldn't be changed, there would never be healing.) It seems to me I recollect that Jesus said to his disciples that greater things than he had done they would do also. Can't find it at the moment, but I will see if it comes up somewhere. So the causes are not out there/here in the physical existence, but rather a distortion of mind brings about ignorance and disease. For example we could say that smoking brings about lung cancer, but if we really analyze it, smoking is not the real cause ~ the real cause being a persons disconnection from source whereby something artificial is sought (cigarettes) to fulfill the sacred function of sharing in the sacred breath of life. If a person were truly connected, smoking would not occur. This could get a bit entangled when one considers for instance, air pollution which is caused by the group. to what degree the individual can suffer from group actions is another discussion. Also I am in agreement here as well: I totally agree with you that attempting to align with the 4th dimensional viewpoint can often be an intellectual exercise and another way to just feed the ego and remain isolated. Thanks for these interchanges, they help me fine tune and achieve more clarity! ~ ~ We Radiate rainbows for the benefit of all humanity.
Dancing Lotus		#25	[-]
Posts: 4303 (12/19/08 09:11:39) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	P.S. It's John 14:12 " ...Greater works than these shall ye do..." Erich, I am curious as to what motivated you to post that particular info from raj just at this time? Were you making a specific point? Please share as to what you think is important in that post. ~ ~ We Radiate rainbows for the benefit of all humanity. Last Edited By: Dancing Lotus 12/19/08 09:13:58. Edited 1 times.
LauraCarpini		#26	[-]
Posts: 108 (12/19/08 10:00:42) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Dancing Lotus wrote: So the causes are not out there/here in the physical existence, but rather a distortion of mind brings about ignorance and disease. For example we could say that smoking brings about lung cancer, but if we really analyze it, smoking is not the real cause ~ the real cause being a persons disconnection from source whereby something artificial is sought (cigarettes) to fulfill the sacred function of sharing in the sacred breath of life. If a person were truly connected, smoking would not occur. Yes! Most Definitely...IMO...
noswrite		#27	[-]
Posts: 4208 (12/19/08 11:42:22) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	"For example we could say that smoking brings about lung cancer, but if we really analyze it, smoking is not the real cause ~ the real cause being a persons disconnection from source whereby something artificial is sought (cigarettes) to fulfill the sacred function of sharing in the sacred breath of life. If a person were truly connected, smoking would not occur." I disagree with the underlined conclusion, for the following reasons stated by Raj in the first posting in this thread. "The Course says that all it takes is a little willingness, not a strong conviction, just a little willingness to be open to the possibility that everything exists in the context of God." And from the same posting: "... anything about the world you are seeing, or the body you are seeing that seems not to reflect the perfection of God, is necessarily a distorted perception caused by thinking, reasoning, and coming to conclusions," Since smoking exists in the world that is seen, then there is the possibility that smoking exists in the context of God, and not seeing it as such is a distorted perception. "I made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it short." - Blaise Pascal
Lillylulu		#28	[-]
Posts: 3134 (12/19/08 13:05:57) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	i don't know why E. posted this, but for me it does dovetail into the dialogue in the "Going Raw" topic in Food thread. this sentence has my focus: "I will tell you that this question arises out of a conflicted sense of what this world is and what this body is; the space time continuum I referred to as the third-dimensional frame of reference." (it is referring to the harmful effects of smoking.) i'm not here to interpret Raj or speak up for his way, but i am merely intrigued how what he is sharing creates an opening in the way i currently see things, so, i may have missed something back there that would be important to understand this from a different focus or an overall viewpoint. My focus probably isn't very clear because it isn't clear to me, yet, either... in addition to what Mark shared, and from a different angle, i think healing the body from the 3rd dimensional frame of reference would include proper diet, don't smoke/drink, etc. --all laws that have evolved here from how we think life/body should be (and this is current reality that is ever evolving) and part of the "distortion"? and perhaps, healing involves going even beyond (3 deminsional), like what we think is the right thing to do with our bodies... yet, (and this is the tricky part for me) to ignore this right thing (eating right, etc) without living fully in the 4th (just using Raj's terms now) can invite the exact effects (disease, etc) becuz we are still subject (either willingly or ignorantly) to the laws of 3 dimensional being... ok, i probably added more confusion here, but it is getting closer to seeing this for me... and to add: "If a person were truly connected, smoking would not occur." i am hearing that it's not about if smoking would or would not occur, but, smoking wouldn't have a harmful effect.. Last Edited By: Lillylulu 12/19/08 13:16:00. Edited 1 times.
noswrite		#29	[-]
Posts: 4209 (12/19/08 13:37:07) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Lil, you wrote: "i am hearing that it's not about if smoking would or would not occur, but, smoking wouldn't have a harmful effect." And Raj said: "It may not look like God, it might look like earthquakes, and it might look like horrendous fires, and it might look like floods, and on, and on, and on." Do you see the connection? Raj could very well have said, in addition to God looking like earthquakes and fires and floods, that God also looks like smoking. Why? Because Raj says that one must be open to the possibility that everything exists in the context of God, and smoking falls under the rubric of "everything." Calling smoking harmful is from the same perspective as calling earthquakes, horrendous fires, and floods harmful. If earthquakes, horrendous fires, floods and smoking are not seen as the perfection of God, then the conclusion of "harmful effect" has led to a distorted perception, as presented by Raj's premise, which to repeat, is: "... anything about the world you are seeing, or the body you are seeing that seems not to reflect the perfection of God, is necessarily a distorted perception caused by thinking, reasoning, and coming to conclusions," "I made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it short." - Blaise Pascal Last Edited By: noswrite 12/19/08 13:40:14. Edited 1 times.
noswrite		#30	[-]
Posts: 4210 (12/19/08 15:02:06) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	A point of enquiry that follows from this is: Why the distorted perception? As Raj says, it is from not viewing everything in the context of God. And what is the context of God? A way to approach this is, what are some limitations imposed upon the context of God by thinking, reasoning, and concluding? One limitation that comes to mind is the assumption that the context of God is limited to the context of a single lifetime. From the context of a single lifetime, anything in the world that you are seeing could seem harmful ... or imperfect. However, this does not mean that the context of God is defined by a single lifetime. "I made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it short." - Blaise Pascal
Dancing Lotus		#31	[-]
Posts: 4304 (12/19/08 15:13:37) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hi lil lil; for me it does dovetail into the dialogue in the "Going Raw" topic in Food thread. I love what you said there : it bears repeating here. eating consciously with awareness of what we "feed" ourselves (whether it is to heal, lose weight, be healthy, etc) goes even beyond these simple intentions. it has something to do with freeing up the inner space of being (body) inorder to be available for something that goes beyond what the body, as it gets weighted down with "junk" or what is labeled "harmful" to our individual being (body), is incapable of moving into... I am feeling at times it is as if the inside and outside designations are falling away. My inner space is is extending the limits of its boundary. (and this is the tricky part for me) to ignore this right thing (eating right, etc) without living fully in the 4th (just using Raj's terms now) can invite the exact effects (disease, etc) becuz we are still subject (either willingly or ignorantly) to the laws of 3 dimensional being... this goes into and out of focus for me but is becoming more steadily clear. If we are not living fully in the 4th dimension, we are not in alignment with the cause of health, we come to do stupid things like smoking, and our body is affected. This is not black and white for me and I tend to think that x causes y, but still have strong intuition that there is more to it than that. i am hearing that it's not about if smoking would or would not occur, but, smoking wouldn't have a harmful effect.. So you are seeing what he is saying is that if we are truly connected in the 4th dimension even if we smoke we won't be harmed. I am not just looking to what raj is saying but to what makes sense and that I can extrapolate from my experience. For some reason I am not able to just take everything raj says, but it can become food for thought. I too think overall it is not about smoking or not, but for me at this time it seems to be about the source of true health which is a deep connection. I too wonder about laws of physics, like if you walk into a wall, you bump your head. It is so amazing the vastness of this little exploration of being human! lil: this sentence has my focus: "I will tell you that this question arises out of a conflicted sense of what this world is and what this body is; the space time continuum I referred to as the third-dimensional frame of reference." I am not sure where that quote came from ~ I did a find search for the post e started out with and your posts. is it from the link you posted on this page.? We Radiate rainbows for the benefit of all humanity. Last Edited By: Dancing Lotus 12/19/08 15:18:37. Edited 1 times.
Dancing Lotus		#32	[-]
Posts: 4305 (12/19/08 15:16:37) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hi Mark Happy Holidays. As I said above to lil kathleen: I am not just looking to what raj is saying but to what makes sense and that I can extrapolate from my experience. For some reason I am not able to just take everything raj says, but it can become food for thought. We Radiate rainbows for the benefit of all humanity.
noswrite		#33	[-]
Posts: 4211 (12/19/08 16:23:15) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	And a Merry Christmas to you too, Kathleen. Regarding "food for thought," "... anything about the world you are seeing, or the body you are seeing that seems not to reflect the perfection of God, is necessarily a distorted perception caused by thinking, reasoning, and coming to conclusions," This statement clearly explains that thought is an unreliable path to perceiving the perfection of God because thought may cause distorted perceptions. However, thought that leads to seeing the perfection of God in anything about the world you are seeing is thought that does not distort perception. Thus, the measure, or definition, of undistorted thought (clarity), undistorted reasoning (clarity), and undistorted conclusions (clarity), is that the perfection of God is perceived in all things you are seeing. "I made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it short." - Blaise Pascal
vv1234		#34	[-]
Posts: 6517 (12/19/08 17:09:42) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	"The Course says that all it takes is a little willingness, not a strong conviction, just a little willingness to be open to he possibility that everything exists in the context of God. And that anything about the world you are seeing, or the body you are seeing that seems not to reflect the perfection of God, is necessarily a distorted perception caused by thinking, reasoning, and coming to onclusions..." "...all of you had better begin to acknowledge that the earth is God expressed, not that it and the universe are just some chance result of some physical interactions, and that somehow speckled throughout the universe are these Souls; little, bright, divine lights, sort of embedded in bits and pieces of the material world. It may not look like God, it might look like earthquakes, and it might look like horrendous fires, and it might look like floods, and on, and on, and on. Carie, I see you struggling with trying to obtain perfection for yourself. Raj is saying (to me) that it (every single thing, every single situation) is already perfect but we cannot see this because of our judgements, our reasoning and coming to conclusions. You ARE God Expressed, every action you do; because no matter what you are in a covenant with God to experience this particular dimension. I also think when you say this: "but I don't hear Raj saying that cause and effect do not operate in the 4th dimensional viewpoint. Rather, what I'm hearing is that it's in the 4th dimensional viewpoint where nothing but the real effects of the one and only true Cause are experienced ..health, healing, joy, peace, etc. There is only one Cause in play and it has the effect of Love." That you are applying limited perception to what Raj calls the 4th dimension. Cause cannot exist without reason or thinking or coming to conclusions. Raj does say "But the belief that cause does lie in the three-dimensional frame of reference is part of the mutual agreement to be ignorant, or to have a point of view based upon partial information that two or more of you agree to call truth." The 4th dimension is where all IS. The state of Isness. No value assigned, just Being. Seeing through God's eyes, everything equal, everything being. I highly, higly recommend you read Conversations with God by Neale Donald Walsch. He explains (or rather God explains) this concept very simply. Last Edited By: vv1234 12/19/08 17:13:56. Edited 1 times.
lightdancer		#35	[-]
Posts: 10165 (12/20/08 08:10:06) Asst. Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Heya Veaves! It's not that I'm struggling to obtain perfection for myself. I'm struggling to understand this idea of "it's all perfect." I think it's just something I've got to work out in my own head, so to speak.
vv1234		#36	[-]
Posts: 6518 (12/20/08 12:32:31) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Carie, Really, go out and get CWG, you can get it for .30 cents at Amazon. It will help you understand "it's all perfect" and God expressed. http://www.amazon.com/Con...alogue-Book/dp/0399142789 Whether you believe it's about "It's all perfect" or about changing your behaviour to be "better" you'll get a huge amount of easily digestable concepts to help you understand (you may not accept it but that's ok) but you'll be able to understand the mindset of "It's all perfect". NDWalsch's blog: http://blog.beliefnet.com...fect-children-of-god.html
Dancing Lotus		#37	[-]
Posts: 4308 (12/20/08 12:43:51) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Mark: However, thought that leads to seeing the perfection of God in anything about the world you are seeing is thought that does not distort perception. You know many times I have felt like I was somewhat of a lone crusader defending undistorted mind, reminding folks not to throw out the baby with the bath water. (not throw clear mind out with distorted disconnected mind) I am not so sure I would use the phrase the perfection of God in anything about the world. That tends to bring up lots of religious distortions for many. I would say that thought that leads towards clarity, which brings forth actions of kindness, love, compassion, joy, beauty, are not distortions. Those words/ideas (and the list could be longer) seem to have less ideational baggage and seem to leave less space for distortion and confusion. IMHO V V How the hell are you, and where the hell have you been. Missed you! Blessed Solstice to all!!!! / \ We Radiate rainbows for the benefit of all humanity.
noswrite		#38	[-]
Posts: 4212 (12/20/08 13:35:38) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	"That tends to bring up lots of religious distortions for many. I would say that thought that leads towards clarity, which brings forth actions of kindness, love, compassion, joy, beauty, are not distortions. Those words/ideas (and the list could be longer) seem to have less ideational baggage and seem to leave less space for distortion and confusion. IMHO" It may be your HO based on your divination of what arises for "the many," however the phrasing I used is taken from Raj's words, which is appropriate for the circumstance, i.e., this thread. "I made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it short." - Blaise Pascal
vv1234		#39	[-]
Posts: 6519 (12/20/08 13:42:55) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I'm good. I've been around, I pop in once, maybe twice and week and read. Not usually prompted to post tho. Always glad to see posts tho. :-)
Lillylulu		#40	[-]
Posts: 3135 (12/20/08 13:44:04) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	mark, i think i do see a connection, but not sure if that is really what Raj is saying. kathleen. that quote did come from the link i posted...it is about the 5th answer down from the top. i spent a lot of time growing up grappling with the everything's perfect concept and what that means here on this plane of consciousness. it has become less interesting to me the more i just stay present where i am this moment. In this space the perfection concept tends to fade away into what is here and experiencing fully whatever that is wrapping it all up in a perfection or imperfection package tends to be seasonal... hi vv !!!

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