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Oversaturation of yoga market

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Suzanne LaForest	Oversaturation of yoga market	Lead	[-]
Posts: 10642 Apr 25 13 5:21 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tags : None In another thread Sandy brought up how the yoga market is oversaturated, and I felt like that is something worth discussing as its own topic. Here is why I think we should talk about it. 15 years ago when I started coming to the proto version of this board set up by Bob Cox and SuZette Estell, I was a new yoga teacher. I had taken a yoga training course with my yoga teacher Bob Glickstein. Despite paying $1200 for the class, I felt like a lot of information I wanted to learn had been missing from the course. In later years as I was teaching, I came to appreciate the simple focus of the course on learning how to teach a few yoga poses well, but I really wanted more than that from teacher training, I wanted to be initiated into the deep secrets of yoga philosophy and meditation. I was in the most advanced class offered at that studio and none of the other class participants in the teacher training had ever attended that class, the only one taught at that level. It was frustrating to see people who were beginners coming to a teacher training course, and never was their lack of preparedness to be there addressed. I saw clearly this was a quick way for the studio to make a lot of cash and so why question too hard the value of the teachers they were putting their seal of approval on. I think other people felt that the teacher training courses popping up were also lacking, and the Yoga Alliance came in with this idea of having some consistency across training, requiring people to teach some philosophy, some pranayama, etc. Now what I observe is that the Teacher Training programs are the only thing keeping some studios afloat. After one session they run through all the qualified participants in their area, then start hawking it to any neophyte yogi who admires the serene nature of the yoga staff at the studio. Hey, we all start somewhere. But are these studios offering jobs to their graduates? No. So, we have lots of new teachers being churned out with very little experience and no mentoring, and wanting to start on their teaching path. In my area there is yoga being offered at all the gyms. There are three yoga studios within 3 miles of my house. There are classes going on in community centers and through the schools. Great, more yoga for more people - except can the people who have excelled make a living when anyone can go get some yoga free with their gym membership? The yoga studio down the street is so proud that all of their teachers are "RYT" as if this means they have real experience, when in fact it only means they paid the money to take some teacher training courses; hell, they could have slept through the classes and they'd still get the RYT designation. What responsibility do we have to create some real standards? What role does the Alliance play in what is happening? How are people feeling about what how the world of yoga has changed? Be the realized teacher.
simpleyogini		#1	[-]
Posts: 6181 Apr 25 13 7:47 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	well you have heard my thoughts from the other post....but adding .....this is from an article....."in the '70s, it was usually done one on one, or through self-practice. So it was a much more naturally introspective process for people who were alternative thinkers. It was weird to do yoga when I was a kid. A lot of people thought it was hippie-ish. As it grew, there were a lot of interesting thinkers who used it to clear the mind for meditation. Yoga studios started to open in very simple spaces, where students would gather for serious practice. Mind you, there were no cell phones back then. It was strict and precious. Although in my household, my dad would practice any time, right in front of the TV. In the '90s it became very trendy. Power yoga emerged, and it felt more like a workout. Soon women who had been in aerobics in the '80s were trying yoga to get a great yoga butt. Now it has become even more mainstream, not only have athletes recognized that it can help them perform better, but it is recognized by the medical industry for its healing benefits. And, naturally the fact that our role models, celebrities and athletes, and doctors are attracted to it opens it up to the masses. There are all types of yoga out there now. Something for everybody. Yoga has become a legitimate business and lifestyle. (mandy ingber) and then this part that I like what he said....from michael taylor ...."Far from unchanging, yoga has evolved substantially over time. Even if we wanted to preserve it exactly as it was thousands of years ago, really we couldn't; too many puzzle pieces. Luckily, we don't have to. And unless we're simply into studying ancient history, it doesn't even make sense to try. With each major (punctuated) change in yoga throughout history, there remained this constant: the inventors were creating what was exactly right for them, at exactly that time and place. The originators of yoga 5,000 years ago were not likely concerning themselves with what sort of yoga cave men were doing, what clothes they were wearing, or what language they spoke. Originators have a way of creating what is entirely their own, from the inside out. So they likely wore their own clothes, spoke their own language, and designed what came to them through their own intuition and creativity. Today, yoga is undergoing another punctuated step in its evolution. For the last several decades, emerging new yoga styles directed a tremendous amount of attention on ancient history. What would Patanjali do? Well, if he was an originator, he probably wouldn't be studying ancient history. He'd be going inside to bring creation outside. In short, he'd be doing yoga. With all the focus on studying old texts, languages, and customs, this important link -- between doing and creating -- has slipped from center. Academic focus on yoga makes for great historians and discussers of yoga; but if we get stuck in the academic, we create followers rather than originators. Doing yoga creates originators -- people who believe in themselves, in their ability to find their own path and create their own best lives. What has always been most important in yoga isn't the studying of yoga, it's the doing of yoga. If we want to create a good life, it's not the ancient practice of yoga that we're looking to discover; we're looking to discover the current practice of our selves. Everything begins here, and we have everything we need. The great evolution of yoga today is returning focus from ancient things to present things: to what we need right here, in this culture, in this time. As this is where we happen to be, we're very well positioned for this task. Everything we need is already inside of us. Doing yoga gives us a way of going there -- connecting with our selves, our intuition, our creativity. We just need to get a little quiet and listen. Right here is the yoga we need for today." I have had so many conversations about this subject over the years with alot of my renters that were taking yoga training. many have no idea of the the traditional yoga and don't care. it was not in their "time". many are from gym environments and are fine with it being that way and our culture is obsessed with body image. many folks are uneasy with some of the practices of the traditional yoga. some feel things like chanting are against their religious views...cause it the chanting is to hindu idols. just as my niece who was born in computer and cell phone age..... doesn't want to hear about the days when we had no cell phones or computers. It is what she is used to, born in. of course I have always been "opinionated" about how much yoga has changed and I think it stinks all this new age fangled way...hahaha...but I can't change this big bis. I wish it was like the old days but everything evolves. religion has....technology...cultures, how women are treated, slavery abolished....everything....why wouldn't we think that yoga shouldn't? it has evolved too from before I started in the 70's. I mean yoga was not meant for women way back.... so I guess without these changes we wouldn't be able to practice. nope I dont care for yoga alliance either...and I wish it was like in the old days....but then I wish a lot of things were like in the old days when life was simpler and less people on this earth. but thats another conversation.....hahaha so I just do my own practice sandy We do not need to be the same, or think the same But we can hold hands as fellow travelers in this life.
Suzanne LaForest		#2	[-]
Posts: 10642 Apr 26 13 5:41 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I agree that we have to be open to change. However, here is where I am not all that open to change: I'll start with a story. When I lived in Wilmington, NC, every year there was a production of the Nutcracker that was put on by all the local dance schools combined. Some of the older girls were very good. There were no boys and a lot of the male parts were adapted to be danced by girls in one school that had an acrobatic style of dance. Some of those teenagers, in particular, were impressive dancers. For a couple of the big scenes, they hired professional dancers from a regional company. These dancers were probably part of the corps de ballet in their company and not stars. As good as some of the local girls were, the difference between them and the professional dancers was astounding. The pro was focused, every movement precise, strong, her leaps were very high, the movements of her fingers, her head, her legs were all clearly the result of years of disciplined dance and instruction. Even this relatively new professional ballerina was skillful in a way the experienced amateurs were not. Perhaps I was just fortunate, but when I started my teachers had all practiced at least 15 years, and like the professional ballerina, even the least experienced of them were clearly knowledgeable in a way, I, a very good student, was not. From the time I started yoga I dreamt of being a teacher, but I did not take a teacher training until I know how to perform asana in my body. For a long time I attended class following all the instructions until finally I felt I "got" how it all went together. Only then was I ready to begin to teach. Those of us who have trained with the very top teachers - Erich, or John Schumacher, or Rod Stryker, or any of the real yoga "stars" right now - know that they have physical and mental skills that can only come from long hours of practice and instruction from the very best. I can want to be a ballerina, but taking a class on a weekend and getting a certificate that says I am an official ballerina doesn't make me dance like one. Having a teacher who is second rate won't prepare me to be first rate. If people are no longer self-selecting to become teachers based on their experience, which is what was happening when I was starting out, then I think the Alliance needs to enforce some real entrance standards for people seeking to teach, as well as for those running teacher training programs. For example, if you want to apply to teacher training and receive a teaching certificate, you must complete, say, 300 hours of classwork within 12 months and be working in the advanced classes at the studio for 100 of those hours. (Just making those numbers up, not even sure if they make sense). Lots of people take teacher training courses just to learn more about yoga and not to teach. I know the studios depend on those funds. How about those people get a certificate that says they completed the program, which could be applied toward the requirement to become teachers when they were actually ready, but they will not get a teaching certificate. Just a certificate of completion? Be the realized teacher.
simpleyogini		#3	[-]
Posts: 6181 Apr 26 13 5:52 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I agree with you...I have always versed my opinion as......just because someone has a "certificate" (in anything) doesn't mean they are the most knowledgable. on another not....have you thought about writing articles for magazines? sandy We do not need to be the same, or think the same But we can hold hands as fellow travelers in this life.
Suzanne LaForest		#4	[-]
Posts: 10642 Apr 26 13 6:53 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Yes, Sandy, I have considered that. Thanks for the input. I am working to put together a business plan and clarify my thoughts on what I want to do. My problem is I have a million ideas and I need to pick a few strong ones to focus on, as well as really think through how I support myself comfortably in a way that feels right. I'm so sick of all these people promoting their blogs and their products - I'm looking more at people like Jillian Pransky and Cora Wen who have something real to offer and aren't just all sizzle and no steak. Probably the strongest idea I have had for a long time is to write a book that spells out how to do yoga in a very concise format - a book that is maybe 80, 100 pages long and gives an overview of how to think through all the poses and meditating using the same general framework for all. A very clear, simple guide along the lines of Hittleman's book. I have had that gestating for a while and a little bit written but need to put together a proposal and shop it. And then I need to figure out how I want to market it - whether to self publish or not, whether it's more of a marketing piece to give me a name or an actual money maker. But it's in there and I'd like to get it out there. One of the things that is great is I have a million people to turn to for help in various ways, and so it is very nice to know that whatever I do choose to focus on I have people who will help me to achieve those goals. In the end it's going to come down to how to turn a very little bit of money into enough to earn a living, and that is the part that I can't figure out and need to focus on. Martha Stewart says you have to love all the parts of your business. Writing, teaching - that's easy for me to love. Accounting, business planning, a marketing plan - more of a challenge. So hacked off with the certificate crap - and mad at the Alliance doesn't have the guts to address it; the teachers involved aren't stupid and if they decided to set some standards should have some real ones up instead of the half-baked solution to avoid any controversy (How can we set any standards on all these different kinds of yoga?) that not only doesn't solve the problem it intended to but made it a million times worse. I never remember much controversy over Iyengar's way of certifying teachers; at least he had the guts to put a real standard in place with different levels of teaching achievement. In Kripalu yoga, when you are advanced you can sustain poses for long periods of time. In Iyengar yoga, you can do a headstand for 10 minutes. These are not mysteries. Each style has its own ways of determining when you can move up to more advanced classes. Be the realized teacher.
simpleyogini		#5	[-]
Posts: 6181 Apr 26 13 9:27 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	sounds like you have some good things percolating in your mind! whatever you decide on....I send my best wishes! sandy We do not need to be the same, or think the same But we can hold hands as fellow travelers in this life.
Suzanne LaForest		#6	[-]
Posts: 10642 Apr 26 13 10:41 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thanks! Like you, the commercialization of yoga is getting me down - but, we all have yoga gear we love, and teachers we are happy to pay to see teach, and books that opened up yoga in a whole new way - so, I think I just have to try to land on that side of things instead of "yoga butt workout." Be the realized teacher.
KFN		#7	[-]
Posts: 5594 Apr 26 13 4:05 PM Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Suzanne, I'm delighted with your book idea! I've never had any use for the Alliance and their certification program. I've seen so many newly certified teachers that were just overconfident and ill-prepared. I had a class with Ganga White the year I went to the Crib, and he made a statement that really resonated with me -- "The most "advanced" pose is the one which best serves the long-term well-being of the practitioner". Not to bring up John Friend, but it always looked to me like Anusara had a good system of teacher training, I like that they offered Intensives that were required before teacher training but also open to people who just wanted to do that for their own practice.
Suzanne LaForest	Oversaturation of yoga market	#8	[-]
Posts: 10642 Apr 26 13 6:27 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thank you Karen. That is so encouraging. I am recusing myself from John Friend conversations due to the fact that the teachers I was involved with who studied with him have strong voices of their own that some have chosen to use and others have not. They do not need me to speak for them so if they have made no public statements i respect that choice. Anusara attracted serious students and I hope the organization can move forward.
Chaya2		#9	[-]
Posts: 1585 Apr 27 13 8:50 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Hey Suzanne, good to see you back on the board, sorry about the job situation. I have found that in the music business, the best things happen when you just go ahead and put out what you have to offer and never mind what other people are up to. It's totally impossible to predict what people will like and what they won't, or who will be interested in you /your stuff and who will not. When we recorded our CD, we had all kinds of ideas about which tracks people woul dlike the most, who would buy it, etc. We were wrong on almost all counts.I personally thought that the tracks that Randy composed ( like "Omega Beach" ) were amazing and that people would go for them, , but in terms of popularity in downloading , the most downloaded was , and still is, the simplest track on the whole produciton.. Om Nimah Shivia . I've played for loads and loads of kirtans, for example, and people would come up and say they loved my playing, but I would sell zero CDs . ( The singers I play for often don't sell any either... they frequently do better on "merch" than on CDs. ) On the other hand, a few weeks ago I gave a CD to the lady who drives the shuttle for the Toyota service center ( she was playing a new agey CD when she was taking me home, and we got into a conversation about relaxing music,etc. I thought she was nice and just ran in got her a CD when she dropped me off, purely on guidance. )The next day, she left a note in our door thanking us, saying she and her customers loved the CD. The day after that, she left another note, asking for our phone number, because two customers wanted to buy a CD. She says she enjoys helping us and making the cusomers happy too, and refuses to take any of the money for herself. . She has sold 10 CDs for us in the past week alone. This may continue, it may not. We have no control over it. I guess what I am trying to say is, figure out what you want to offer, then offer it.. with love. Don't push it. Don't get angry or bitter if the people you think should be interested, are not. .. it's just the way the universe has of pointing you in a different direction. We have a friend who told us a couple years ago, "Don't go chasing Lakshmi.. it doesn't work that way, she doesn't like it. Just do the practices and she will come to you." He was right. Good luck to you, sweetie. love M
Erich Schiffmann		#10	[-]
Posts: 5480 Apr 27 13 9:42 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	excellent advice, Marianne so fun seeing you and Randy last weekend!
Suzanne LaForest	Oversaturation of yoga market	#11	[-]
Posts: 10642 Apr 28 13 6:30 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thanks Chaya. It's nice being back. I understand what you are saying but still feel I need to organize and focus myself because I need to put my energy into something. As it is I feel overwhelmed by choices with no real sense of where I want to concentrate. Even with the book there are a couple of ways to go about getting it out, at least, and I need to think through options with people who have some experience with publishing and self publishing because its a lot of time to put into either avenue but different things I need to do for each one. I also think I need to have a way of evaluating things from a business perspective so i can feel more comfortable about committing money and time into projects. Like, when I made my crappy cd you can tell there is no production value there and so, you know, maybe if I'd thought it through how to market and promote it I might have felt comfortable putting money into the recording and marketing and then sold more because more people would have liked and recommended it. I know I can't force people to buy something but I have to figure out what I'm willing to spend, where to spend it, and at least have some ideas about how to make enough money to continue with it. You've invested money into recording equipment and instruments already, and have already started the process of performing, but I need a lot of help if I'm to record something professionally and I'm currently not teaching at all and realizing the easiest way for me to teach - renting space at a local spot - is not really how I want to teach. So if I do things that cost me money or are such a huge investment in time to put together and promote, i have to think through them in terms of putting the right amount of attention to each project. I also recognize that if I am to try to replace my income I make in high tech that is not just going to fall into my lap. If you were to quit your day job i think you would look at your CD a little differently. I don't think that means you'd be shoving it down peoples throats, but, you might be thinking about how to create more opportunities to sell it. I need to honestly address these issues and stop pretending they aren't important to me. If this is what I need to do to create something I feel proud to promote and share as a real representation of me I need to do it. And then maybe once it's out in the world I can let go of the results, but I need to consider what is likely to support me and not just stab around at random ideas or spends hours writing a book with no thought about who I think might buy it and how. I need to have the people I am writing for in mind so I can write for them, just as I would teach a class to the people before me and not to the people I expected to show up.
Chaya2		#12	[-]
Posts: 1585 Apr 28 13 8:03 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	You know, after I posted this I thought you might say that about the day job. I'm sorry if I sounded goopy ( I can't think of a better word) or made you angry/hurt your feelings. You are right, it's a different ball game when you are having to do it for a living... we went through that when we first got married and Randy was a full time jazz musician. But the only real difference is the amount of time and energy you have available to put into producing your product and marketing it, and the stakes are obviously higher becasue you are depending on the money to pay rent and eat... the way it works ( or doesn't ) is pretty much the same. I see that on a regular basis with people like David Newman, Girish, Gaura Vani, Jai Uttal, etc. It is very difficult in the yoga world, and the kirtan singers, yoga teachers, workshop presenters, are all in the same boat. Even people like Jai, who are "famous" and have lots of "fans" struggle with the unpredictability of people's responses"Yoga people" may be lovely human beings but they are flaky consumers, honestly. Musicians /presenters schedule workshops and they have to be cancelled because of not enough enrollment, people who come to concerts will burn CDs for or from their friends instead of buying them ( but won't hesititate ot spend 50 bucks on a pair of trendy yoga pants). Presenters get sick and have to cancel concerts and there is no health insurance. They all have to talk a good game in Facebook, in public, becasue the image of success breeds more succeess, but behind the scenes it's often a different story. Wah ( who has been around for ages, as a yoga teacher, author, musician, etc) recently told us that she is not scheduling regular yoga studio kirtans much any more because people just don't come like they used to. .. it is becoming more and more only worth her while to do the big festivals. They travel constantly and are dependent on hosts to put them up in private homes or hotels, and most often don't have a choice in where they stay or with whom. The only reason they keep doing it is because they love it, and they feel guided to do this as their offering and spiritual practice. They sacrifice a lot to do it full time. I recently had a long talk with Gaura Vani about this.. he used to work for "the man" ( his words ) directing training films for the customs service in DC, and now he works like a maniac to support his family and still do what he loves full time.I spent 24 hours with them recently and I was worn out just watching him go,,, I don't think he slept more that a few hours the whole time I was there... So I guess I said what I did because it sounds to me a little like you are NOT loving the current yoga scene, and maybe you are unsure about whether this is the way for you to go. The business of yoga in many ways is an oxymoron. Business is about competition, selling your product, services, whatever, and at the same time convincing people why they should part with their money /time/current yoga teacher to buy your stuff and support you. The people I know who are real yogis that make their living at it, say behind the scences that they are very uncomfortable with the self- promotion piece , but do it because it they have to. There is no easy answer... and I can tell you that asking people before you put something out whether or not they would support it probably won't be a good predictor. My best example of that is when Randy and I brought Sapphire Bell to PA a couple of years ago to help her record a demo CD and do a concert with her. We had LOADS of people who said they would come... we had a nice medium sized venue, hired two other really good musicians ( one of whom, Doc Gibbs was at the time very well known because he was on the Emril live show), promoted the shit out if it in the local media and to all of our friends.. and guess how many people showed up? three. THREE. We had a great night of music and more people in the band than in the audience. Everyone who said they would come sent regrets, many said they assumed we would have a great turnout BECAUSE the music was so good and Doc would be there, etc. If we were trying to make a living at it, we would have considered it a total loss... as it was, we knew going in that the result we had was totally a possibility, and we had fun anyway, although we certainly wish more people had heard Sapphire, because she was ( and is ) awesome. So I guess maybe I am writing this to say that my experience is there is no clear answer .. I told the story about Lois the Toyota lady to illustrate that support often comes from crazy, unexpected places and I told the other story to illustrate that sometimes the support you are sure will come totally tanks out on you. Erich said something like that in teacher training, about not trying to talk people into coming to your class, to just put what you are doing out and see what happens. If you invest money in a creative venture, you pretty much have to do it with the full realization that you may lose it, so don't gamble more than you can afford to lose. We joke all the time that our house looks like crap beacuse we invest all our money in instruments ( and travel ) and the new windows, carpet, fixing the patio , gets put off year after year after year. Ok I will shut up now, and hopefully I haven't pissed you off any more than I think I did with the last post. :-) Last Edited By: Chaya2 Apr 28 13 8:54 AM. Edited 2 times.
Suzanne LaForest	Oversaturation of yoga market	#13	[-]
Posts: 10642 Apr 28 13 9:02 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Let me put all of what I'm thinking another way. Let's say you decided to quit teaching tomorrow and support yourself as a musician. If you were to do that, you'd probably do a couple of things: one) through thinking it through or through meditating or asking for guidance you would come to the clear moment of knowing, "I want to write complex, interesting, beautiful relaxing music." At that point, you'd put on your business hat you'd consider what you have done so far "market research." You'd look at what you had learned and think, "Okay, we know of two markets for our music. One is the people who download music. Downloaders like the simple, well known mantras. The other audience is people who drive around in their cars all day and like to listen to full length albums delivered on CDs." Now you can listen for more guidance. "We like the easy money of the mantra stuff but it's not who we are and we are not going to invest our time. We want to reach those people who drive around in their cars listening to CDs because they are the ones who appreciate what we are doing." Then you might start giving away more CDs or figuring out if doing that is too expensive but maybe find another way to reach out to that crowd that you can afford. You might look at your live performances and realize this is your passion and, hey, people there like buying merchandise so, we'll sell a bunch of t-shirts so we can keep doing what we love. If you want to spend more time performing and less time selling t-shirts, maybe can hire someone to do that for you so you can focus on performing. Being aware of your options in a conscious way, in a business oriented way, doesn't stop you from being open to what your true passion is, it makes it possible for you to evaluate whether you are spending your time doing the things you are good at and want to do, and figure out how to more of that.
Suzanne LaForest	Oversaturation of yoga market	#14	[-]
Posts: 10642 Apr 28 13 9:07 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Chaya we cross posted. Thanks a lot to digest. I appreciate what you are saying and am definitely seeking that dose of reality.
Chaya2		#15	[-]
Posts: 1585 Apr 28 13 9:12 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts
Suzanne LaForest	Oversaturation of yoga market	#16	[-]
Posts: 10642 Apr 28 13 10:37 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Have you ever considered that you are talented musicians but horrible accountants and marketers?
RobynLGibson		#17	[-]
Posts: 3071 Apr 28 13 11:22 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Goodness, so much thinking. Good intentions to you. r
Chaya2		#18	[-]
Posts: 1585 Apr 28 13 1:17 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Suzanne...I don't know how to respond to that. Wow. I guess I should just quit while I am ahead... as usual, I was trying to help and don't know when to shut up.
Suzanne LaForest	Oversaturation of yoga market	#19	[-]
Posts: 10642 Apr 28 13 1:32 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I know that was a grouch snarky, but, for example, my friend Jennifer was good friends with the manager for one of New Orleans' most successful musicians, Charmaine Neville. They were such good friends that Charmaine played her very small wedding (amazing, yes). This guy - no way this dull, plodding man could have gotten up on stage and entertained like Charmaine. Then again, no way the vibrant chanteuse could deal with booking venues and making sure contracts were fair to her.
Suzanne LaForest	Oversaturation of yoga market	#20	[-]
Posts: 10642 Apr 28 13 1:34 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Sorry I did not mean to hurt your feelings. I think what you did for Sapphire was lovely and thoughtful. I just meant that I would like to see you focus on the things you are naturally talented at and allow others to support and promote your work with their own talents.

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Oversaturation of yoga market

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